The Morning After the AGM
UPDATED 7:45pm It’s time to consolidate and rally around the new PCC to move the church forward. Accord them the respect and goodwill to do their job. We all need to take stock and discern what the Lord is saying to us. Yet to finger point or blame anyone or any congregation when some of us do not get the outcome we desired is not helpful. We will never have PERFECT leadership, yet we can hope for HEALTHY leadership. Throughout history, the church has always been flawed and at times gravely flawed, yet through her the grace of God flows. Keep our hope in God’s goodness.
How do we make sense of All Saints Cathedral’s AGM? Candidates that are most vocal about reforms were not elected into the PCC. We are tempted to view it as a landslide win for BAV and his charges and resounding defeat for people who cries for reform. Is this view accurate?
The was a tight race in the election. The former Treasurer lost by 9 votes, and the incumbent Secretary won only by razor thin margins. The other PCC positions saw close contests too. While we can expect BAV to write to HOB to denounce his critics as minorities who cannot even win the parish election, we are certain that righteousness is not defeated. Objectively, BAV and his charges obtained slightly more than 50% of the total votes. Can you call that a landslide? Can they get this result without some heavy duty smear campaigning in the certain congregations?
Do you know who & what was defeated?
Sound reasoning was defeated by rumour mongering. Reformers were demonized as troublemakers by priests and pastors. There was heavy campaigning in the certain congregations by church staff and clergy. Instead of engaging the real issues the RM400,000 drop in offering in 2012, the rising deficit, the lack of check and balance, the church had retorted to demonizing reformers as “troublemakers”, “jahat”, and “evil”. There is no engagement of reason and tackling of issues, it was just smear campaign and character assassination. When it comes from church staff and clergy, it can only be true right? In the middle of the AGM, this SMS came through:
The new AGM format did not help members to focus on church affairs and issues. Votes were cast before the incumbent PCC made their final reports and members debate on pertinent issues. How do we choose future leaders when we are clueless of current affairs? Nearly 30% of voters left immediately after casting the ballots and skipped the reports and debates. If we want to inculcate care, understanding and participation in the church, we should re-evaluate the new AGM format.
Unity was defeated by sectarianism. What BAV and his charges failed to accomplish in 2011 & 2012 AGM, they ‘succeeded’ in 2013. Pitting one congregation against another didn’t stop Rosalind from being elected the treasurer, it finally worked in 2013. BAV and his charges have honed their skills for three years and they got the results they wanted. Why didn’t the reformers campaign and rally for support from the other congregations? Do you want to elect candidates who would stoop to politicizing and dividing the church to get elected into PCC? Which of the two women truly loves the baby? The one who wanted the child halved by a sword? Or the one who gave up her claim to the child to preserve his life?
Today we must make a choice, one that brings either life or death to our church. BAV pits one congregation against another. He prefers we distrust one another, hate one another, wage war against one another. Why? So he could divide and rule! So we are busy fighting one another and forget about the issues and abuses that is tearing the church apart. No, we will not forget the unanswered questions in the Management Letter nor the 38 allegations found true in the PAC report. Truth temporarily defeated is still stronger than evil triumphant.
Today, I choose to praise and worship the Lord. He rules and reigns supreme.
Rejoice for He is in charge and his ways are righteousness and good.
Rejoice for He loves you and me and everyone that we disagrees with. His love is wider and deeper than what we can imagine.
Rejoice for the church is His bride. He will wash her and cleanse her.
Rejoice for nothing can separate us from His love.
Rejoice for His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
Rejoice for today is another day we can behold the beauty of our Lord and hear His still small voice.
Rejoice for He is our Lord and we are his children.
The Truth 
What out clergy n church staff did was shameful n completely UNGODLY. Is ADOS trying 2 preach 2 us that it’s really OK 2 b a hypocrite n lead a life full of deceit, hate n all forms of negativity?! Most clergy r really UNFIT 2 b called shepherds as they don really follow Christ’s teachings at all!
Dear Clement,
I am afraid that you are throwing the bath water with the baby in the basin! Your statement of “MOST CLERGY r really UNFIT…” need to be clarified. Please note that young clergyman does make mistakes which I have also in my early days in the ministry. However, to say UNFIT, how do we qualify a clergyman as FIT then? Would like to know your opinion further how to classify as such.
Thank you.
Rev James Lee
Rev James Lee: Are you one of the clergies in the Diocese? You seemed to be very sensitive to the view and criticism of Clement. You acted liked a faithful and God-fearing clergy. Please give me a chance to listen to your valuable opinion about the current crisis in our Diocese.
Clement, it’s not helpful to use labels and blanket statements. Bav uses them to alienate the “troublemakers” and “evil” candidates. How are we any different if we do the same? Most importantly is this pleasing to God?
Clement’s comment’s blanket statements about the clergy and staff is really uncalled for, nonconstructive, a general statement without clarification…and as JL commented “throwing the bath water with the baby in the basin”…. sound like simply labels and utters out of frustration and reactions from the results which perhaps favor side that is not in his liking – akin case of bad looser and sour grape. Politicking and election is over, let’s get on with our life. Only thing we are able to do now is to watch and see how the newly elected perform…and to concert efforts in voting them out the next round around if any does not perform as expected. Merely labeling without bases is immature and would not help. Suggest Blog Master to stop posting such unhelpful comments which serve nothing but hurting those who are targeted.
This is an example of “vote-rigging”, influencing the voting decisions by ASC parishioners. Under constitution, can this voting be declared void?
Sms yg disebarluas itu boleh jadi satu bukti yg menjejaskan ketulenan dan ketelusan pemilihan pcc itu. Akibatnya, akan ramailah jemaat yg tidak puashati. Dan ini bukan satu hal yg mendorong dan menguatkan kerohanian jemaat. Akhirnya, gereja tidak akan berjaya menguatkan kehidupan rohani dlm kalangan jemaat. Perpecahan juga akan berlaku. Hanya Tuhan yang dapat mengadili perkara ini. Tuhan memberkati
A Llntikan
The Clergy did a smart campanged & uses all the Cathedral’s facilities to their fullest advantages.
Our detectives at the ground did their best to check phantom voters.
The election processed has been cleaned, transparent & fair. The only lesson the losers could learnt were,
the BM & Chinese congregations has team work & very united. Unfortunately MKLee has an excellent line up of professionals who has a big heart & interest of the Cathdral but the congregation lacks team work & some are NATO Generals. ie talks alot but no actions.
With the results, I trust & pray it will not the beginning of the destruction of All Saints.
The winners will have a great task ahead to unite & brings healings to ASC.
To all the winners & ABV, it’s not a passport for free spendings like no tomorrow, much work needed to be done especially pastoral care to the sick, funeral isues, overseas mission trips must be discontinued unless very necessary.
To the losers, don’t be soured, it’s not the end of the world.
What I would like to know is that why did ASC clergies not go to the English congregation to campaign? Why only BM and Chinese one?Weren’t they taking advantage of their ignorance? A bus load came only to vote? A lot of them did not know who are these PCCs and they just followed what was instructed to them.Did they ever question the clergies and staff why certain PCCs must not be voted in?We are not sour people but the way being done gave us the feeling that although it might seem to be transparent and fair but they were not! Why must the clergies and staff ‘campur tangan’ with the election? I hope those being elected will not be Yes men and women and you have a tough time ahead of you.Do not think that you have ‘won’ the fight now you will always win because you are in the majority.Congratulations to James.You are now the eyes and ears for the English congregation!
Definitely, certain group of the congregation has been “asked” to vote for certain candidates favored by the top leaders. Rosalind lost only by 9 votes really showed how much effort that group has “flood” in the votes in order to win and yet still just marginal.
Its really shameful that top church leaders can do such a thing to influnce people to vote just to please some top leaders instead of truly seek God’s guidance and wisdom.
Analysis of the results against the SMS –
!, 2, 6 were supposed to be elected but 6 did not make it and 5 make it for the Warden.
The Secretary and Treasurer as proposed were elected with the incumbent treasurer lost by 9 votes.
For the PCC members:-
1,2,7, [9],11, [12] ,14,15,18, [19] were listed in the SMS. [ ] = not elected.
Incumbent Dorothy Chin (12) was defeated and number Ian Ma (9) did not make it while Hazel (1 ) Liew (2,) Ng (7), Foo (11), Ku (14), Ho (15), Timmie (18), were elected. 7 out of 10 in the list were elected.
The incumbent were elected 1,7, 14,15, 18 and who are the seat warmers?
The new faces are likely on the list as 19, 9 were not elected.
3 new faces elected to PCC.
So the other new face is Foo (11) in the SMS list.
Who is this new face – Vun Ket Cheng (5) not in the SMS ?,
So the new face is Fabian Lai (8) not in the SMS list.
Despite the cheating or rigging with unfair advantage, the anti Reform team has nothing to shout about as an incumbent and two new faces in SMS list failed.
By the way, were all candidates present in ASC and introduced to the congregations at the briefing by the Dean before the polling?
Strictly if any of the candidates were not present, they would be disqualified as in previous elections.
I do praise God for those members who came out and to vote for those candidates who fear God and who are upholding Bibical standards. Despite the results might not be what we expected but God saw our actions and every thought and deeds that we act were counted in the sight of God.
I do pray for those selected pcc members will Know their responsibility as a representative for God and for the members of the church.
May they fear god but not man because but the end of the day, we are all accountable to our father in heaven. Praise Our God for He rules and reigns.
A TRAGEDY—A reference to the SMS, written in Bahasa Malaysia, which was widely distributed among the B M congregation yesterday is a proof that the AGM held at the Cathedral was politicized and ill-manipulated.
Will those newly elected PCC members (elected not base on their meritorious record) invigorate collaboration on solving the current church crisis?
It is NOT PROPER to have the Election early on at the AGM. It MUST be towards the end, as a last item of the Agenda, prior to AOB if any.
The flame for change should not be snuffed out, but all who advocate change should take stock, particularly on approach and appeal:
1. Wonder why Jesus, the Great Reformer of His time, needed to grow “…. in favour with God and MEN” (Lk. 2: 52)? Someone may exclaim, “What!? You mean Jesus had to develop skills in gaining/receiving favour/support from mortals!?” If it is not or can-do-without, the Holy Spirit/Luke would probably not have wasted ink and space to have written it down in the scrolls! A few in this blog have stated that respect is earned. As much as we want it to be applicable to the other side, it is also conditional on this side.
2. Certain American presidential candidates had great policy and plans for the USA, but they lost out because the opposite guys kept their cool in the heat of the debate/argument. The American public also seemed to favour candidates who were more relaxed in the presidential debates.
3. Gordon Brown was a great reformer of Britain’s monetary and fiscal policy, but he failed to receive the mandate as an elected Prime Minister. One of the reasons was probably due to him calling a woman “bigoted” before the election. The man who called someone “bigoted” probably impressed on the public as someone who is somewhat bigoted as well. They went for Cameron instead, even though Cameron needed a crutch from Clegg.
P/s. Thank you blogmaster for prompt and concise dissemination of interesting AGM news.
After reading to all the comments and observations mentioned here,one can only conclude that this was an election where no one played by the rules.The intention by one particular faction was to win and win by all means it did.The other faction did not try hard enough to really want to win by garnering all its supporters and fence sitters to support them. If winning is not by playing the game fairlyand adhering to the rules of fair play then it is not a real victory albeit a hollow one.There is so much work to be done by the newly-elected ones if they are really sincere to serve by putting themselves up for election and thereby got elected really want to stop the rot and decay of ASC.
What a pity that the clergies can stoop so low as to adopt the secular world style, like pitting the members to go against each other so to get the yes-man/agree-man in the PCC, in order to milk the diocese the way they and their boss (AV) wanted it. It is high time to cripple the income in order to see an end to the scheming. There is no two way about it if one wants to see that come to an end.
Overall it looks like, av title is too heavy for anyone to consider action, including the law and yet many are still blind to all his misdeeds and schemes.Therefore the only way to win the fight is NOT to give like before, just give the very minimum. Give it a go and see whether it works,
Simon,you are right. It is time to stop the talk and walk the talk.
First, reformers were over confident with their impeachable credential of professional line up.
Second, the group were not organised as the Clergy & very fragmented. Far too many Generals calling the shots & little front line battle ground troops been deployed.
Third, why did the group having two candidates for chinese warden?
Fourth, no unity among their choices of candidates.
Fifth, the BM & Chinese congregations & their Pastors work in unity & strategized their election campaigned.
On top of the above BM & Chinese Pastors with the help of English Pastors uses all the facilities at their disposal to the maximum after having seen the reformers line up of candidates.
To all the winners, your job as PCC is to look into the interest of the Cathdral & not BAV`s.
Address the contagious issues of lavish spendings, dropped in attendance, lacking in pastoral cares,funeral issues, deficits budgets year after year, unite & heals the wounds + distrust between the Clergy & parishioners.
This is a church and very different from that of a country where general elections are concerned. It was obvious,the ASC clergies and those involved even SL came from KL to campaign and she still had the cheek to come back after what she had done to the Deanery! All these people were bent on winning for their master at all costs even stooping to votes rigging! They used the services to do smear campaigning and even using SMS .By the way who paid for the bus load of voters who came and went after voting? if the church paid,then it was not fair to the reformers.
Why did the reformers lose? They did not want to stoop so low to manipulate the voters,played politics,planned strategies at all costs to win and are upright people and did not do any smear campaigning like their clergies labelling them as trouble makers and even the bishop commissary did the same.What chance had they got when HT named them as such as well?Did the reformers given a chance to rebut and clear their names? They were accused wrongly and the worst thing was even the pastors of the English congregation were against the reformers! Infront of them,they preached forgiveness.blah.blah,blah but behind their backs they preached another topic to other congregations! What else they will not do in future? No wonder,the English service is practically empty! How to listen to these pastors’ sermons when in your heart you know they do not want to know the truth and do not want the truth to be revealed!
We earnestly hope that Dean Chak will stay neutral and not be a puppet to ‘you know who’! I don’t believe all PCCs are AV’s men and women.You have the Dean now at the helm to put things right and with your support and our prayers we hope there is a way forward.
They may won a battle but not the war yet…its not over or done yet! If its not right..the issues will stays…no matter how long it takes until it is solved once n for all.
God does things unexpectedly n amazingly beyond what we can imagine…just have patience…alot of it !!
I suggest that another 2 blogs to cover the chinese n BM
One blog for chinese readers n another for Bm readers so that both will really understand n know what is going on in Asc today…
From what happened during the election one can figure out why the reformers lost…
People need to understand the real issues by reading themselves..ask questions etc not just heresay.. as they would conclude its just bad gossips..rumors
agreed.
The truth can never be defeated. If God is for us, who can be against us?
From last Sunday’s AGM and the way the people in white robes plus their gang dealt with the elections,it was these people who do not want reconciliations. Hope the HOB and MT read the comments from this blog and ponder what is going on.You all preach reconciliations to the sheep but what about the shepherds? It was obvious they were the ones creating disunity,divide and rule,pitting one congregation against another,one person against another,making full use of the church facilities,all out to discredit the people who want the truth,know the truth and tell the truth.Here we have those in power in church wanting to do the opposite ,taking advantage of ignorant people to help them gain votes.They will be made used of again and again.If these same people from the bus load go to ask for welfare from the church will they be accorded such treatment,sent them to hospital using the bishop’s cars since he has many,take care of their families,cloth them,feed them,let them stay in the bishop’s lodge or camp outside while their families are having treatment in the hospital?.If they can do all these,then surely these are men and women of God!
For the “bus load” people, they have to act on the instructions handed down because they know the ballot tickets are numbered according to their names and can be traced back anytime if they do not tick as instructed. For going against instructions, they may lose a lot of benefits.
Were there any other reasons why ballot papers should be numbered according to names aside from tracing which candidates they voted ? Were there any administrative virtues to correspond names to ballot papers ? Was this meant to be a slap in the face for those administrating the polling process that they are not to be trusted when giving out ballot papers ? For crying out loud, this is a Church we are talking about. Even the lay clubs have secret ballots when voting for leaders and committee members.
I was tasked to be one of the observers during the recent AGM.
I chanced upon some unfamilar faces from the BM congregation, when asked they told
me they were not regular to our Sunday services and had the guts to tell me God
sent them to the AGM. God sent??? Hopefully these groups can assist the Cathedral
financially & ensure accountability, transparency & good governance. Stop the double
standards in managing the affairs of the Cathdral in term of providing pastoral cares, funeral issues, sending teams to overseas & kampungs mission trips.
I rest my case.
To Joyce and Conspiracy Theory:
Dear bro/sis in Christ, the voting system implemented during the last AGM is the most complicated and most transparent as far as I know. I want to congratulate the past PCC for the implemention of this new innovative voting system. Eventhough there is so much work to be prepared, all of those involved in one way or another are very satisfied with the voting system. The serial no. introduced in the ballot paper (Introduced after meeting with all the leaders selected for counting the votes) is purely for the ease of recording so that there is no mistake of double counting and the ease of checking any mistakes. There is no motive at all to find out who you vote for eventhough this can be done. We have to trust one another in this.
However, we cannot control who the voter votes for. That’s beyond anybodys ability to do so. It is up to them. It is hoped that each voter will seek God’s guidance and wisdom, but, if they want to follow or listen to or be directed, its up to them. Its up to their conscience.
We praised God for appointing the new office bearers and pray that they will be used by God to bring transformation and revival to ASC. I am sure that’s their desire too. God can choose anybody, even a donkey to fulfill His work. So, what can we say? May the Lord bless and help us all in the works ahead.
Dear Transparent, Christ Church had their ballot tickets numbered to correspond with the voters’ name a week before ASC went for elections. After checking with their past PCC members, the decision was never tabled. The priest-in-charge only took the directive from the top. It comes to mind that “all the leaders selected for counting the votes” formulated a system to manipulate the system.
Another suspicion is the fact that voting took place before going through the reports of the AGM. The “bus load” members just voted and left which indicate their only obligation was to cast their votes and not concerned with the affairs of the church.
I am sure there will be more issues surfacing and this is only a small portion which has been troubling me so far.
Dear Joyce
I understand that you are frustrated. I am too. But your comment on pastor in charge and the counting team is uncalled for. Your comment that they are manipulating the system is very unfair and its really not true. There is no such intention. Its up to you whether to accept or not. Peace be with you.
Dear Transparent, you seemed to be well acquainted with the whole election process mechanism. if you can explain to me the numbering of the ballot tickets between the white and orange paper where one was numbered by hand while the other was numbered by print. Seems odd that numbering was initially done by hand writing and subsequently when the orange paper tickets were used, there were already numbering printed on from where the hand written numbers left off. I fail to find peace until an acceptable answer is explained.
i do agree.but let us try to calm down.we must not let someone wrong doings turn us to b like them.they can misuse church fund,cheating in the election but can u cheat god? the day will come when they meet him n can they enter the kingdom with all their past actions?we r angry but then we r humans.take it as an invaluable lesson.people who r supposedly to b near righteous n who r entrusted to lead the way can b wolves in sheeps clothing..the greatest judge will b judging n no one can escape if they hv done anything wrong.b patient humble n calm.
Can you say what was last year’s income from tithes and free-will offering? And what is the acreage of the land on which the cathedral and Wisma Anglican stand. Thanks .
Foreign correspondent –
Why do you want to know? Do you want to buy ASC for its real worth?
Say what you like, having serial number on ballot papers is not a fair and transparent
Practice in any election. This together with other tactics had greatly influenced the result .
Had these not being put to use, the outcome would have been different.
Numbered ballot papers are not undemocratic per se; they are an important guard against voter fraud in ensuring that only those people who are entitled to vote do so, and that teach person only votes once. Otherwise, we might have heard accusations of the ballot box being stuffed with “fixed” votes, or of critical votes not being cancelled.
It is possible that ballot papers may be analysed after the event in order to work out who people voted for. However, this would be a gross abuse of the process, and even after all we have seem, I can’t see BAV’s supporters acting that way. It is normal practice that the completed ballots are held under lock and key, in case of legal challenge, and then destroyed after a reasonable time (12 months).
I am one of the observers. The voting arrangement is proper, good and fair, all the registration and counting staffs did an honest job, accept for the numbering of the ballot papers. If someone wants to know who the voter is, they are able to trace it back to the voters. Dishonest acts still can be carried out by priests, pastors, and cell leaders. I believe most accusations against the above mentioned were true. By right two weeks before the AGM election, all priests, pastors and cell leaders in charge of the various congregations and cell groups should be neutral and they should warned members during the church service and cell meeting not to listen to any one trying to influence or tell them who to vote. They should tell the members that it is a sin to influence or tell anyone who to vote. They should encourage all the members to pray for every candidate before they go to vote on that day, that God will give them the wisdom to vote the right candidate to serve God. This was the normal practice before. Why all the silence now, unless there are ulterior motives behind this. The other unfair practice is, election of PCC members was held before the AGM and the dissolution of the present PCC members. I hope the Dean and all the priests and pastors throughout the diocese will take note of these.
I think there is a serious lack of moral compass within our anglican community. The ones who are determined to maintain the status quo by whatever means (even resorting to such immoral dirty tricks) are probably also those who protest the loudest about the corruption and injustice that are besetting our country Malaysia today, especially in regards to the coming GE. It is a depressing and seemingly desperate situation for those of us who want restoration of our church to the path of biblical purity. I feel very sad about my church. It’s ‘hear no evil, see no evil.’ Any desent is necessary the devil’s scheme to derail the vision of the great leader. Ostriches reigh supreme. Don’t rock the boat because believe me….everything is hanky-dory, they say but actually they are rotten all round. I can’t even join in the sunday mornings’ worship with a uplifting heart, least of all the sermons. It’s hypocrisy all round. Some have left the church where they have been worshipping for years. I sympathise with them. For them, their hearts are no longer there. They cease to feel a sense of belonging as they know they can’t cope with the falsehood of those who stand at the pulpit and purport to speak from God’s word while the whole time harbouring a desire to crush any attempts at suggesting that all is not well within the great ADOS. I have learnt to worship and love the Lord where I am, and to wait upon Him, knowing that this is His church and He will not let the rot set in and if it did He will halt the rot when it is HIS time.. Patience is the key. Heresy has beset the Church throughout church history and we will not be exempt. He always have His remnants and He will enable them to remain faithful. Meantime, let’s remember to persevere in prayer for ourselves and for those whom we may look upon as the perpetrators. Above all, let’s pray for His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Amen
Most of us are fast losing respect for the clergies in ASC. They do not practise what they preach. I am glad to read from Rev James Lee that not all clergies are what we think they are,so he is one of the exceptions.I am wondering those trained by AV himself,are the certificates recognised universally or just in Sabah Anglican?
All Prayers go for Dean Chak.At least JK is going to be given an audience by him and his PCCs and his questions will be answered,we hope truthfully,sincerely with transparency.
may his glory reigns.
dont stop going to church services cos there r still honest, faithful christians who stands at the pulpit.why let those few hypocrites turn u away?dean chak is there n hopefully he can help to calm the storm with god’s help.the sabbath day is the day we go to the house of the lord.we hv been going there for ages.we should stand firm .its our church n it still belongs to every anglican who hv neen worshipping there.i think the lord wont b happy to see us give up.b firm n strong even when there is persecution.
Can anyone tell us how many more voters were added to the rolls since it was exhibit on 3rd March or earlier.
I was told my own number in the roll was changing after the first set of roll when I went to the office on 18th March, 2013.
So need to check who are really on the rolls including foreigners?
As some would say, we will lose out the burial ground to the non “ASC” members who happen to be on the
rolls.
Did anyone check the rolls?
As long as AV is still the bishop,no matter how much of hard work Dean Chak does to improve the situation of the church, it will not be better. AV has the prerogative to do anything.Any rules that needed to be changed have to go to him for approval-e.g allowing all Anglicans to be buried in the cemetery unconditionally.Chancellor said must write to AV for approval. Furthermore he is the boss and who dares go against the boss,being the Anglican bishop of Sabah .Dean Chak can only so much but big decision still has to get the nod from AV.
Concerned Anglican,
AVCF is the trojan horse and whatever he is doing already according to a set agenda to destruction.
When he first came to ASC, he brought his whole team from St Patrick and his modus operandi is known now.
Then AVCF and his gang started to send people away from ASC those people who asked questions.
Then the BISHOPGATE went from bad to worst and all the events since Oct 2011 had been play out every way to Kuching, Singapore and KL.
Many people have left the ADOS/ASC for reasons known to them over AVCF and his gang.
Now when he came to ASC we may have say 10,000 deserving and concerned anglicans in Sabah and the long timers have declined. These are members and beneficiaries who in the worldly system would share in the “spoilts” of the set up. So the less we have in ADOS would mean, the final grab would be more.
We all wonder why he is still staying around with all the shame in the blogs and elsewhere. AVCF did not get the demanded apology from Daily Express on 21 July, 2012. So we can draw our own conclusion when he accused others of LIES, when it is the TRUTH against the trojan horse.
So whatever ASC wants to do, it is exercise into futility in ADOS as long as AVCF is Bishop.
Meanwhile I await the amendments to the Constitutions of ASC and ADOS.
JK,Don’t expect too much from Dean Chak and PCCs when you and your group meet them.Be prepared that you may not get the full answers that you want but it is a little step forward from the YTC,a young smart guy who does not know how to deal with the older generation.Dean Chak is from the older generation and he is trying his best to ‘keep you shut up’ by granting you an audience,So let us all wait and see what answers you will get. You are the greatest ‘loud speaker’ so this is one method to ‘calm’ you down.
an Anglican. I am in full concord with what you have written. We born an Anglican and we will die an Anglican no matter what happen. No one in the ADOS will be able to stop us from going to Church. Not BAV, not his cronies, not now and not ever. We have all the time to see all these guys go one by one. BAV only have seven more years. Seven years is only at a wink of an eye. More over with his reputation he will not go down well in the history Anglican in Sabah and the world at large. You can win once or twice but you cannot win all the time. As long as there is no genuine repentant from BAV and his cronies, there will never be peace in the hearts of ASC members and the rest of the ADOS. Respect is earned from what you do and can never be demanded especially in the context of Christianity. It is through genuine love, care and humility, where everyone can see and feel. Those worshipers in ASC are not three years old kids. They have seen and felt more Bishops priests and pastors that came and went through ASC but never one such as BAV, Arrogant, Extravagant, No Love, No compassionate heart, Power crazy, Steal, Lie, you name it he has it.
All the issues and concerns raised, I hope can to be brought to the attention of the PCC. Our Dean has so far shown his openness to listen. I do hope that the wardens can play a big role by bringing these issues to the PCC meeting. So we need to approach them and raised the issues officially. I hope the ASC web site can be more transparent now with the administration of the new Dean. Constructive criticism is good and its for the improvement of ASC.
It is good news to learn that JK is going to be given an audience with the Dean and his PCCs and to listen to his questions. I hope more meetings can be planned to meet the people session so as to bridge the gaps between the clergy and laity. We want peace with God and amongst one another. May the Lord help us all.
If Dean Chak is full of the Holy Spirit and with wisdom and His leading such worldly way (politicking,campaigning,voting) won’t have happened.He is the Dean,he is in charge and I believe he knows it. He just let it happen, to please whom? If he is after GOD’S HEART he would wisely gather all the voters,English, Chinese, BM to preach/advise them to follow GOD.
‘S WAY of choosing/voting men/women full of the HOLY SPIRIT to the PCC as he laid down the criteria for choosing leaders in the Bulletin dated 17th March,2013. Are these chosen leaders “full of the Holy Spirit” ? LORD JESUS told his disciples how to identify the tree (person). The type of fruit will tell the type of tree.In other words you know them by their fruit. If the leaders are worldly what kind of church we have? If leaders are not full of the Holy Spirit what spirit they have? O LORD COME AND DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE.
Dear Anonymous,
Dean Chak is on the seat for ❤ months. Even so, I believe his efforts can be genuinely noticed by now. Why not give him a chance? Reading from what you have written, I believe that whoever (not only Dean Chak) sits on the Dean position, you will not be able to accommodate….becos you are looking for a perfect man. You may accuse Dean Chak of not having done this or that. If he has done it, I strongly believe that you will say he still has missed out on others. I am seriously interested to know who is the 'ideal' Dean that you are thinking/dreaming of. Please recommend for ALL to assess. I believe that there will be somebody else who will condemn/criticize. Afterall, there is no perfect man.
For me, I will not bother who is the Dean as long as he is positive and constructive in reviving ASC. (At this juncture, I won't even bother about BAV or ADOS as I believe this should be addressed as a separate matter – step by step). Can I expect some positive support from you in this? I want to (at least try to) move forward…..I don't want to be a NATO (No Action Talk Only) member. Less criticism & more constructive contribution will bring us to greater heights! I believe the REFORM leaders would agree with me. Shall we move on??? The LORD is waiting….
well done! u hv expressed what i think is the correct attitude we should b having.thank u for this n i hope all true deep down anglicans try to get over their disappointment n emerge stronger n loyal to asc.remember asc is not bav.its god’s place.we r not worshipping bav!