Well Done Dean Chak & PCC
The recently concluded AGM had the most transparent election held at ASC in the last seven years. It implemented a foul-proof ballot system, invited each candidate to nominate an observer during vote casting and counting process. Dean Chak together with the PCC initiated the openness and reformed the voting process. To me this is a great move by the new Dean to restore law, orderliness and transparency after controversies of vote rigging marred the AGM in 2011 & 2012. It also showed the new Dean is eager to reunite the church and kick out the nonsense that plagued ASC during BAV’s leadership.
I questioned the need to number the ballots, whether the move eliminated secret ballots. After further investigation, it became clear every ballot carried a unique number. This is to prevent the ballot from being duplicated illegal and placed into the ballot box, a move common known as “ballot stuffing”. Currency notes carry a unique number to protect its authenticity. No two ballots carry the same number, just like currency notes. I can imagine the hard work put into the ballots and voting system. The leadership deserves credit.
On Sunday, casting a vote involved 3 stages. One, a voter is screened for eligibility by presenting his I/C or passport and had it cross checked against the electoral. Two, if the voter is found eligible and legit, he/she was given an serialized card and then join a queue to cast vote. Three, just before the voters enter the voting booth, they handed over the serialized card in exchanged for a ballot. It seemed like an awkward system because we are using it for the first time, however it eliminated fraud. Nobody could run off and duplicate the ballots. There was NO REPORT of anyone recording numbered ballot to a voter’s identity. Thus the suspicion this system violates the secrecy of voting is unfounded.
While some pastors were campaigning aggressively in some congregations, there was no evidence to suggest Dean Chak was involved at all. Also, many admired the fact Dean Chak and the PCC would give an audience to Joshua Kong whose 3 motions were denied. While the previous leadership often ridiculed Joshua, the new leadership had shown respect and magnanimity.
It was reported some overzealous observers were abrasive and rough. While it is understandable the observers were keen to weed out abuse and foul play after being outmaneuvered by BAV in the last two AGMs, such behaviors only confirmed the accusations the reformers were “troublemakers”. Dean Chak is not BAV. We need to be clear. We must give the new Dean and PCC support and time to do their job. To nick pick and complain incessantly will only hamstrung any fresh efforts to restore and unite All Saints Cathedral. Let us not play into Satan’s ploy who is bend on killing, stealing and destroying.
There is one area I would like to seek clarification from Dean Chak and the PCC. For three Sundays leading to the AGM, it was announced in ASC every voter must show their I/Cs or passports to be eligible to vote. Yet last Sunday afternoon, some members produced their baptism certificates only and were given the right to vote. Is this a last-minute change of rules? Is it different rules for different congregation? A clarification from either Dean Chak or the PCC will be much appreciated.
The Truth 
Yes, well done indeed. I always maintain that Dean Chak could do a well done job. keep up with the good work, be impartial without fear of any body but God. I am hopeful of unison in both factions under his leadership.
yes, i do think its high time we start giving credit to dean chak.NO ONE is perfect! we cant expect anyone to b so.Lets start praying instead of complaining .we should b humble n ask ourselves would we b able to do things perfectly?I m sure there is bound to b others who r not happy whatever we do.We must remember its God we must please n not men.Dean Chak is a human being.Pls respect n b fair.Remember we r christian brothers.GIve him a chance.Praise b to God alone.
The election process by Dean Chak was obvious slightly modelled on the EC.
Like the EC model also loaded with hidden agenda, ASC model was modified without any explanations for certain facits of the election process.
There are some issues still need to be resolved and fine tuned.
I would like to ask this question why the three congregation English, Chinese and others including BM are given ballot papers from different batch?
What happen now to the ballot papers?
For those very votes, were there any recounts?
Dear Joshua,
I thank God for the opportunity given to you to meet with the Dean and PCC of ASC regarding the many issues that you have raised. I would like to offer you a little advice. Please be calm, peaceful and level-headed during the meeting. Do not make too many inferences without proof. It would only make you look stupid. Be nice, gentle and conciliatory in your approach. In everything God’s name must be glorified. Go with the Holy Spirit as your guide and counselor.
I wish you all the best. All we want is to get to the bottom of the truth so that the church can move on.
From a friend, Clifford
Clifford,
Thank you for your advice but I am not going to see Dean and PCC alone.
I hope you can come along and bring others who love Christ’s Church such as ASC.
I hope it would be in independent venue and properly minuted.
I also hope this blogmaster would send someone to record it LIVE.
Everything would be done professionally as I have be been in accountancy/audit for more than 40 years.
I have a lot of proofs and that is why I make all sort of justified allegations which would be denied by AVCF.
If AVCF has not done any wrong doing, just show us everything we want to see.
Lets settle the BISHOPGATE now
Dear Clifford,
wise words of encouragement.TQ
Dear Joshua,
Trust in your accounting professionalism and your ‘proofs’. Be confident to meet up with Dean & PCC. The doors are opened now (lest you say Dean & PCC are not transparent). For the sake of ASC, PLEASE trash out whatever issues you have and let’s move on. Clear your doubts. With your solid ‘proofs’, I strongly believe that you can easily solicit your crowd or supporters to accompany you in meeting up Dean & PCC….if not 10, at least 5? If not 5, at least 1?? Otherwise, you may need to reflect on your stand… God Bless!
What Dean Chak should do is to call up all those who were involved with organising the elections including the clergies and staff to hear what people talked about them were true or not. We do not blame Dean Chak because he was not around until the very late as he had gone to Israel.I do no think he knew he would be chosen to be the Dean of ASC and his plan to Israel was made a long time ago. There should be some guide lines what the clergies and staff should do and should not do to avoid argument regarding the voting of PCCs.Rules should be strictly adhered to ,if only ICs and passports were to be accepted,therefore if anyone came along with baptism certificates,they should not be allowed to vote.These people could be illegals and had no right to vote!!
There is no excuse for Dean Chak for not knowing what’s happening in All Saints Cathedral during his visit in Israel. With today’s advanced technology & computer & handphone, he is able to know everything going on in the church from his clergies/pastors/office staff. He cannot claim I know nothing, hear nothing, see nothing because I am aware in Israel. He and all his staff should repent for the irregularities at the AGM.
Let us try to b reasonable at all times.Even if Dean Chak knows it,does he hv proof of it?We should not blame everyone of his staff n clergy cos not ALL of them r involved in this.Dean Chak cant work wonders n miracles overnight.Am sure no one will own up saying, yes we did manipulate the elections,ask certain congregation to vote for ceetain candidates n etc….Dean Chak can only act if he has solid proof.ALL of us need repentence as sinners.But u can b assured GOD will punish those who turns HIS holy place into a mess.Those who help n turn a blind eye to it will not get away with it too.But let us not b judges cos we must n can judge ourselves only.Let GOD judge them.
Good say…let’s move on!!!!
Let us give the Dean a break. Don’t forget he is in the Holy land. He did let the congregations know how to choose the PCC members in the weekly bulletin, one before he leave and one after he has left. I am wondering who wrote the second one??? With due respect to the Dean I do not agree with the word “respect” written in the bulletin because we have a bishop who holds the highest ranking in the Diocese and expect everyone to respect him but he is such an Arrogant man, no humility, no love, no compassion, no care, never admit his own faults, Extravagant, seen to be corrupt and a Liar. He is a very unpopular person. Where as a popular man like yourself have a lot of respect. Can a man like AV gain any respect from any right thinking ordinary men? While the Dean was away, some others more powerful persons were around during his absent and direct the priests, pastors and workers to do their evil deeds. You know who these people are. It was posted in this blog. It is only three months; the Dean has been with us. So far he has done a very good job. We must give him all the credits for the works well done so far. Let us work with the Dean and the new PCC just for one year because the next AGM will come in less than 365 days. One year is no big deal we have gone through more than six years of the most difficult time in the history of ASC. Just be patience to wait and watch the results deliver by this batch of new PCC members and Priests and pastors, whether they will be able to earn any respect from the ASC members. We have been encouraged by “GIVE ASC A CHANCE” so let’s us play our parts and support the Dean and the PCC for the time being and observe. I am sure, most of us know what we are “NOT SUPPOSE TO DO”, until all the problems are resolved. If the Dean does his works well and is able to unite all the congregations in ASC and be his own boss, not a puppet. My friend and I will fully support him to be our next bishop. I say again, Respect and Honour are earned by your works and person. It can never be demanded. Beside as Christians, more so for those in white robe, we are to serve God and his people without expecting anything in return not like some who demand love gifts and bonuses. Bonus was given in the corporate world to their workers for incentives to work harder. Do we need the carrot and stick to deal with our priests and pastors? All those who gave up everything to follow Jesus, do so willingly. We can come up with a pension scheme and a reasonable pay scheme and benefits where priests and pastors 12 months pay will enable them to leave reasonably. Since our priests and pastors are allowed to be married and have children than allow their spouses to work and not a double standard as it is now, some wife can work other cannot. The Synod and the SC should look into our constitutions and make necessary changes with the agreement of all ADOS members. Let us not confirm to the world.
Overall the election seemed to be fair. However, there is one issue which most of the parishioners may ask. For the post of the wardens, do we know the nominated candidates well enough, other than the candidate from own congregation? Personally, I felt that for the warden posts, only members of the same congregation should be allowed to nominate their warden to represent them, e.g. Chinese congregation members should only be allowed to vote for Chinese Warden, English for English….
To: FW . Your suggestion of the warden – Chinese congregation to vote for Chinese warden while BM and English to vote for their wardens – I FULLY AGREE it should be that way . Perhaps this matter can be brought up to the PCC or the Dean for consideration.
FW,
Yes, the respective warden should be voted by the respective congregation.
So should we now call fresh elections for the wardens?
Joshua, i would say no. As this round, we should respect the decisions made. Afterall, every election committee had agreed to the way it should be conducted earlier. Perhaps for the next AGM, this issue should be highlighted.
Yes, it is good to vote warden according to each congregation but the constitution is silence in this. Unfortunately when the constitution was formulated, there was only one congregation. As far as to my knowledge the constitution has never been amended. So, leave it to the Dean and the new PCC to look into it, I hope.
Dear Charlie,
The Constitution of ASC was amended in 1996 when there were already three congregations.
The Constitutions of ASC and ADOS are so brief and so many things are silent like submissions of motions.
There is no clause to say that PCC can reject any motions submitted and only the AGM can defeat or approve the motions submitted.
The amended Constitution of 1996 was a ONE way traffic from the Bishop.
So today after the crisis – BISHOPGATE – we go through, we need a comprehensive review of the two Constitutions to make them very clear on many issues.
One of the major issues is that foreigners should not vote but can be associate members of ADOS/ASC.
Are you coming with me to see the Dean and the PCC possibly next week?
https://thetruthasc.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/3-laughable-resolutions/
September 2, 2012
3 Laughable Resolutions
While winding up the Synod, Rev. Kenneth Thien tabled 3 resolutions. The move was controversial because the Diocesan constitution stipulated any resolutions must be published in the Synod agenda, at least 6 weeks before the Synod. This is to provide all the churches adequate time discuss, study and weigh the issues. I’m puzzled how our learned Chancellor missed that. Not only the Synod was unconstitutional, the 3 resolutions were laughable. Please read on
My friends and I have been observing that only very few priests, pastors, servers and lay leaders are following our Anglican traditional service, particularly at the Cathedral this day. Priests, pastors’ servers, lay leaders and even our most respected Dean do not bow to the CROSS any more when they walk across the CROSS; accept for one very faithful and dedicated Senior Server, who never fails to bow to the CROSS at any services. Why do we need to have the CROSS hung in every Anglican Church? First it is to remind us of God loves for us. Second it is to remind us that Christ had suffered and paid for all our sins. Third it is to assure us that God is with us. Fourth it is to remind us to focus our lives upon the CROSS. Fifth if you truly believe that the presence of God is with us then we must pay Him the utmost respect which belongs to Him by bowing to the CROSS as a symbol of our respect in our heart. If we cannot do this simple act what else can we do? Today most of our Priests pastors, servers and lay leaders do not practice, the bowing to the CROSS in the Cathedral, especially those young priests, pastors server and lay leaders. Then what is the different between the Anglican Church, especially the Cathedral and any other independent Churches? Are we not trying to encourage our members to leave our Church to worship in GCC or any other independent Churches since there is no different in our form of worship? The CROSS and Bowing is the uniqueness of Anglicanism. This makes us different and gives us a sense of pride, belonging and identity. Another thing we observed in this year Good Friday service is that only 3 HYMNS were sung, may be next year you will not find any more hymn . We pray that the new Dean will not try to make any changes to our traditional services which are unique to the Cathedral. So far you have done a marvelous job, don’t spoil it. You should bring back the full traditional worship for the 7.30 English services. There were 3 Bible reading i.e. Old Testament, the Epistle and the Gospel. Name, and pray for those who are sick and print their names on the bulletin, so that other can pray for them in their own time. Condolence to the family of the departed, congratulation to those just married and to the parents of the newly born etc, to be printed on the bulletin.. All these are to show that our Church loves, care and concern about the lives and welfare of our members. We believe that a little bit more money spends on printing and papers will benefit all of us. Rather than wasting our money on new carpets, furniture ipads etc. Another suggestion, why not, put the praise and worship after the concluding hymn, So that the tranquility and the smooth flow of service can be maintained for most of the older generation. Be considerate to the old, with the high and loud noise, long standing and songs they do not know how to sing. This will affect the rest of their worship. Just because you are young now, that does not mean you will not be in their position in your later age, provided you will be able to live that old. As the saying goes “you make us happy we will make you happier, but if ????. Another suggestion for the Dean and the new PCC members, if you can re-introduce back the Children Sunday school on Sunday morning, many parents will be over joy and very happy; at the same time we may even encourage some non-Christian parents to join our Church service while waiting for their Children. As it is now, many parents felt that since they have brought their children to Sunday worship with them, they don’t need to send them back in the afternoon because they want to spend their prime time with their children in the afternoon especially working parents. At the same time it is a rest day for the working parents too. A good program will takes everything into considerations. Which mean a win, win for all concern? More to come.
JS kong,it is year 2013 now. Don’t repeat what you have said over and over again. write something constructive and hide your grudge for God sake. If you really have to grouse, do it in your own blog. Don’t meddle in this blog. we are fed up
Kent,
Are you referring to the Synod’s 2012 where the three “laughable” motions were from the floor without the appropriate notices of 6 weeks?
I have to refer to that in another title here because my motions submitted much earlier ie 7 days complete with the seconder’s signature were rejected for lck of 14 days notice. Why not from the floor at the ASC AGM?
I did not bring up any grudge or old issue. It is fresh today.
To Kent : Had the church crisis been settled?
Congratulation and Praise the Lord for our Dean Chak. It has been more than six years we have never heard such a good sermon preach in our pulpit. It is very up lifting and appropriated for the occasion. We hope to hear more such sermons from God’s words, not only from our Dean but hopefully from other priests as well. For the past six years we only heard of self glorification types of sermons. There are still many Anglican’s traditions which are missing or incomplete e.g. like the Good Friday seven stations which should start at Christ’s condemnation. And the Holy Communion table should be kept empty after Palm Sunday services until Easter Sunday. Of course we are sure this is an over sight on our Dean due his busy schedules. But his Dean Warden should have reminded him, or maybe this is his first time to become a warden. Anglican traditions are very important to the Cathedral which is the mother Church. So we hope those who are responsible please take note of this. Our apology, if what have been written is wrong. We only want to see that the Cathedral does things correctly for the benefit of every member. Let us work together in unity to build up the Cathedral to its former glory and beyond. Amen
My apology to Dean Chak and to my friends, regarding the clearing of the Communion Table. It was immediately after Maundy Thursday and not on Palm Sunday. I want to thank a beloved lady who pointed to my mistake. As Christian brothers and sisters we must apologize for our mistakes. When someone point out our mistakes, it is because they care and wanted the mistakes to be corrected and the truth be made known. No one is perfect we all make mistakes but we must own up to our mistakes. Once again my thanks to the beloved lady and my mistake to the Dean
Number of voters:-
Disability Booth 66
Filipino Congregation 8
BM Congregation 218
Chinese Congregation 178
English Congregation 282
—–
Total 752
===
How could the number of voters be 752?
Do you all really believe there were actually 282 English congregation voters at the AGM? One look at the people on that day,many shook their heads and said,SURE LOSE! How right they were!
Rev Chak and the PCC are right in not granting electoral rights to birth cert holder without IC or Malaysian passport. In another word, they are ‘migratory birds’ who no longer reside in Malaysia and should not have anything to do with the affair of the local Diocesan here.
If I have not misunderstood what you mean, isn’t it normal for every member of any organisation to have a right to vote, irrespective of nationality or race. In the case of the recent AGM, as long a person is a registered member of the Church, shouldn’t he or she be entitled to vote irrespective of whether he or she holds a Malaysian passport (inclusive MyKad) or not, be it British, Australian, Indian, Thai, Indonesian or Papua New Guinean passport? Is it constitutional the Anglican-way and ethical to exclude a believing or baptised or confirmed member of the Church to vote if he or she holds a passport other than a Malaysian one? Without any sound justification and constitutional authorisation, the practice of exclusion aforementioned appears to amount to racism, discrimination and bordering apartheid. Thank you.
CPLF makes a lot of sense.
God created us human beings in His own image, no less.
It follows that whenever we worship God, we should use all our 5 senses – sight, smell, touch, voice and ears. Not just 1 or 2 senses.
There is a APSEA Lectionery. In addition to the 3 Readings, there is also a Psalm, the hymn book of the synagogues in Jesus’ day.
In fact the altar is stripped at the end of the Maundy Thursday Eucharist, including the washing of feet (St John Chap 13). The consecrated host is then transferred to the Altar of Repose, representing the Garden of Gethsemane.
Thank you, brother Wong Yet On for correcting my mistake and your agreement to what I have proposed. Yes, the altar should be striped at the end of the Maundy Thursday Eucharist. I apologize for the mistake made.
To Resolution Seeker, I must agree to disagree with you. Registered associations have rules and guidelines approved by the ROS. Normally in the application form, not any Dick, Tom and Harry can be registered as member of that association. Most association required, would be member to be Malaysian citizen or holding a PR status. In the context of our Church the constitutions is silence on this matter, because many things in our constitutions is out dated. This is why today there are so many problems in our Church. Our present constitutions are good when the number of churches is few and the leaders are Simple, Respectable, Faithful, Honest God fearing men and the amount of cash and transaction are less than ten thousands and now some of our Major Churches handle Hundreds of thousands and ASC income is in the millions. We really need Godly, Respectable, honest, professional’s people to manage our Church; otherwise we will see a bankrupt ASC. I am not trying to put down anyone here and according to you if our transient’s members are not only allowed, to vote and also hold any or most of the PCC posts, because they are all full members of ASC, which according to Church’s statistic their members easily out numbers us. Then the whole PPC committee will be filled with transient’s member’s .Do you want this to happen? As I have mentioned it previously. If we are not careful, it takes only a few top people with evil intention to manipulate these large resources to rule over the rest. If our constitutions are good and proper without lope holes, then we have nothing to fear and worry about. I leave it to the ASC members and the new PCC to decide.
Dear Charlie, your comment on the current church voting system is interesting, and your thoughts about the limitation of the existing church constitution, and a need for it to be reviewed and brought up-to-date by ASC members and PCC, is useful. However, I must “agree to disagree” with you on barring transient members from voting. As long as a believing, baptised or confirmed person is a REGISTERED MEMBER of the Church, there is no reason why he or she should not be entitled to vote based on nationality, race and for that matter being transient or not. Aren’t we all in one way or another transient? Is not the younger generation and modern workforce relatively transient too in these days and age? Would it be aceptable if say for climbing-the-ladder sake, one bypasses the necessary procedures, and break the rules, in order to achieve it? In the same manner, is it aceptable to exclude certain group of voters based on nationality and inclination (rather than transiency) in order to favour the candidates of one’s choice? Whilst I absolutely agree that unscrupulous Tom, Dick and Harry should not be voted into the PCC, we cannot deny his or he supporters from voting if the Church has already accepted and REGISTERED them as members. If we apply one rule to a group, and different one to another, without careful consideration and constitutional empowerment, we can be accused or even sued for racial discrimination, if the “discriminated” group has the resources or certain financiers for them to do so.
P/s. What is a definition of a transient member? Is it based on nationality or race, or based on how many times he or she attends Sunday services per year, or others?
Resolution seeker, I am sorry you don’t get my point. It’s up to the ASC members and the PCC to decide the eligibility as to How a Transients members is allowed to vote. Don’t tell me that a transient member just been here six month who have been Baptized and confirmed and who do not know any of the candidate from the other congregation is allowed to vote blindly or being told who to vote for by someone who have evil intention. I say again I am not trying to belittle anyone, some time facts are facts, some transient members may not know what are they voting for or what do the people whom they have voted in, do. Their time here is variable meaning to say anything can happen to them any time. They may lose their lively hood, they may be stopped by a road blocks and sent back to his/her country of origin. Yes, as Christians we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. We must love, care and have compassion for one another but God also gave us wisdom to make wise decisions. The word Transient in my dictionary means: lasting only for a short time, brief, short lived, impermanent, passing and momentary. This has nothing to do with nationality. If according to what you have written, as long as these transient members is baptized and confirmed they can vote and then it also correct to say they should be given a burial ground also but my understanding is, they were not given. Why the double standard? Finally “Diocesan Constitution” Article 1. Definitions. 1. “CHURCH MEMBER” shall mean a person who has been baptized in an Anglican Church or in a Church in communion with the Anglican Church, WHO RESIDE LOCALLY and is committed to MINISTRY of that Anglican Church and who has been entered into the Register of Church members of that Church. Do the words “WHO RESIDE LOCALLY” mean TRANSIENT to you?
…….The word Transient in my dictionary means: lasting only for a short time, brief, short lived, impermanent, passing and momentary……How short is ‘short’? This definition is too weak to be taken for consideration. Suggest that you write to the PCC for further elaboration.
DON’T BRING ME A PROBLEM, BRING ME A SOULTION,
What problem you are think of?
Some people have classified as “troublemaker” but who caused the headache and trouble in the first place?
Not many people can see the wrong doings as thieves do get away most times, otherwise the Courts would be loaded and the prisons would be over
We know who are the thieves as the marks are every where.
Surely, the thieves do not want see any problems they face.
The solution is obvious namely put the whole house of God in proper order as God is about order.
BTW, I can smell rats under the command of the highest ORDER running away from knowing the TRUTH.
The problem is….too many ‘talks’ in the blog but without any concrete or constructive contributions….NATO members!!!
I totally agree with what you say on the solution being obvious namely put the whole house of God in proper order as God is about order. Nevertheless, this is still a ‘statement’ confined within the blog…. No Action Talk Only.
I am still waiting for the Dean and PCC to give me the audience and then we can do something from there otherwise
DON’T BRING ME A PROBLEM, BRING ME A SOULTION , tell me what can we do?
Bring them to where now? You do a Memorandum then.
Your move to meet up with Dean & PCC is already a good solution (Not Talk only). Congrats! Let’s await the outcome from this action.
Dear The Truth Blogger, it will be great if you can write a piece about the ” assignments” carried out by the Facilitator and the Commissary – latest progress they are making in providing redress to the crisis or what road map they are following as we are in the dark.
Bishop Commissary paid RM 7K monthly to warm the chair & guard all
sensitive documents from 5+7.
Today’s sermon by Bishop Commissary was mind boggling………….,almost 55 minutes.
No biblical substance & was a merry go round. Lots of fishermen/women today.
Does Rev. HT cares ?…………….., after all he will be richer by RM 200/- per sermon.
Similarities ?
http://calvarytoday.blogspot.com/
Thank you Joyce for that eye-opening link. Those leaders who abuse and misuse what belongs to God (and there are so many of them) through habitual lying to those who so hero-worship and idolise them will become desensitised by the horrors and sinfulness of their misdeeds over time. They are those who despise those other christians who do not pander to their particular brand of the doctrine of wealth, health and prosperity that all christians have a right to claim and who revel and take pride in their own charismatic superiority. By their works ye shall know their faith! They think they can run from the consequence of their misdeeds and lies but they can never run from their all-knowing God. May He cause and enable us to remain humble and sensitive to His calling to be His light and salt to the world.
Heard that some wanted to take actions but was discouraged by higher up,so what can be done?
Must agree Js kong and many others are NATO members only.
Resolution seeker and Charlie,
Every nation has its own ruling and in a registered society under the society act, only Malaysian aged 18 and above residing in Sabah can be accepted as full members while others can be accepted as associate members where such members are not allowed to hold office or vote at election of the executive committee. There are some variations for some classes of membership in some registered societies.
I know Anglican churches formed 100 years and more have the concession to be excluded/exempted from the requirement of complying under the Society Act 1966. So we need to be conscious of this exemption and not go against the national system as far as members are concerned. I don’t believe we are exempted from the penal code for criminal activities within the church setting. What was the intention to bring the Police into the church on 29 Aug 2012? Possibly to enforce the penal code if disturbances occurred.
Now back to the registered members, and I think the whole registered membership system must be reviewed in line with the laws of the nation where all non national can come to church and become associate members without the right to vote for any motion or PCC elections or offer themselves to office. So we need to verified all registered members are Malaysians residing in Sabah.
The way the whole thing is done for the elections where registered members can bring their foreign passports to vote is really questionable especially some (numbers unknown) were recently registered as members for a hidden agenda.
The Society Act 1966 does not discriminate anybody by race or religion or creed but the nationality is the criteria. So it is good practice for ADOS and ASC to comply with this aspect in line with the national policy.
Also the heads of all Boards of the ADOS should be Sabahans.
Joshua Kong
A very good and constructive point! Perhaps this should be written and proposed to the PCC for further deliberation. I strongly believe that Dean & PCC (or even ADOS) would address this issue and come out with a positive solution.
i don’t get it that people believe they had to give as much as 10 percent to the church anyway, why not just give a small part of it to the church and use the rest of the 10 percent to directly help out needy people around us in our localities, why ask us to kept giving when the church had more than enough already, makes no sense to me
This may be a bit philosophical. Many said, while some insisted, “The truth will set you free.” Amen to that. And, different people said exposition, mitigation, litigation, elimination, recomposition, resolution, reformation and new constitution will do it (no doubt all these are valid and sometimes indispensable), but will the Church as the body of Christ be truly free until, like Haile Selassie proclaimed, “Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and goodwill ….. as we are confident in the victory of good over evil.”
Notwithstanding all the ‘…TIONs’, be hopeful that the Judgement Day is drawing near. Keep going and persevere…..
there’s no need to give a full 10 percent to the church, we could give a small part of that to the church and use the rest to help out needy people around us in our localities, provided the money is given sincerely without hoping for any returns, i don’t see any reasons why we could not do this, and of course it’s blessed all the same
God loves a cheerful giver! Thank God that you are giving….or at least figuring out how to give. I believe this issue has been an on-going ‘struggle’ (and still is) among many Christians. While solutions are obtainable from many sources, it all depends on whether we ourselves are prepared to accept them or not. Nevertheless, is this blog considered the right forum to discuss this issue?
The bible teaches us to give a tenth of what we hv to Him.We must b cheerful givers.If we r unhappy to give than its better if we dont then.Many of us r unhappy with this cos we r all worried the money is going to b spent carelessly.But then i m wondering, is it the right thing to do if we channel part of it to charities????
Does the part we give to charities b considered as tithe?? I hope the blogmaster can enlighten us on this.Is the tithe for His churches ?But on the other hand is it better to give Him what is due n let God pass judgement on those who missuses it???God hv always encouraged us who r blessed to do good works.But do we deduct it from what we OWE Him???It is always more blessed to give than to receive.Blogmaster pls help.
Tithing is NOT for the church.
Tithe or ma`aser means a tenth.
Strictly theologically, Tithing was instituted by God for Israel under the OT laws.
The tithe was not money. It was from the produce of the land to upkeep the temple and the Levites
who had no land. They included grain, fruit, and livestock. Only products produced within the boundaries of the land of Israel were to be tithed. Jews living in Gentile lands were exempt.
Many heretical prosperity teachers have abused the most well known passage on tithing from Malachi 3:7-10. This passage was addressed to Israel; to be exact, to the priests who were cheating God of the proper
tithes in the Temple!
If anyone really wants to ‘tithe’, the actual total tithe in the OT was around 23.3%, not 10%. 😉
Do you want to give to a church that spend money like no body business?Money given to the church is no more yours and you have no right to question about where the money has gone to according to what AV said.Better give your money to help those who are poor and need financial help.At least you know it is put to good use .Helping others is also doing God’s work.As long as AV is still around,don’t give.Don’t forget,he still wants to build his CC to glorify God or to glorify himself? According to one commenter his salary is 5 figure and with wife’s pay,no wonder they want to stay as long as possible,where can he get such a cushy job? Nobody can touch him! If the constitution is not changed, no one can take action against him!
If that is a thelf in your house, do you keep any valuable thing there ? Seek God ,where His belonging to put.
Charities watchdog acts to oust City Harvest leaders (ST Today)
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/commissioner-charities-acts-remove-city-harvest-church-leaders-2013040
The Commissioner of Charities (COC) is acting to remove eight leaders of City Harvest Church, including its founder Kong Hee, from office. This is after they were suspended last year by COC following an inquiry which revealed there was mismanagement of funds at the church.
The eight are: board member Kong Hee; board chairman and trustee Lam Leng Hung; vice-chairman and trustee Tan Ye Peng; executive director of the church’s administration division Kelvin Teo Meng How; and executive members Sharon Tan Shao Yuen; Chew Eng Han; Jacqueline Tan Su Pheng and Serina Wee Gek Yin.
If the COC is successful in removing them – with the consent of the Attorney General – four of the key office-holders will no longer be allowed to hold any office positions in City Harvest Church or any other charities for life.
Six of them – Kong, Lam, Tan Ye Peng, Sharon Tan, Chew and Wee – are also facing criminal proceedings for allegedly embezzling more than $50 million from their parish. Their trial starts on May 15.
All of us are waiting eagerly for the trial and verdict of CHC spiritual leaders and staff in Singapore.
After all that have been said and done (or not done), the younger generation, particularly young families, are asking whether or not they want to raise their kids and teens in a church where the reformers and non-reformers are present. They are not likely to pick, but they are likely to be very concerned if their children will be SAFE and SECURE in the prevailing church environment. They would probably particularly assess how opposing or “disliked” individuals have been handled. If one day, their kid or teen falls short of the glory or expectation, or steps on a toe, of the reformers (or non-reformers alike), will their kids be equally exposed to be humiliated, shamed and “slashed” to pieces. For they see very little over the past years people have been handled with care, as they pursue their project and agenda.
Resolution Seeker: Read https://thetruthasc.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/collateral-damage/ If this blog has done the contrary, please point out where children were humiliated, shamed and “slashed” to pieces in any blog post or comments posted here.
Thank you for publishing my comment and providing the link. In fact, the concern is if grown-up church members are not handling each other with care and with dignity, particularly those on the opposite side, the real worry to some families is that will they also handle them, or those associated with them, young and old, in the same manner if one day toes are stepped. Having said that, and even though that kind of category exists (link refers), the number is likely to be small. On what you have pointed out above, affirm that there has been no direct or specific case where children have been exposed and “slashed” to pieces in your write-up or commentaries. Also affirm that your work and efforts in the blog is not futile, considering the limitation we all physically and spiritually share.
Have the Bishop and his clergy treated the laity with respect, care and dignity? It started with one man bulldozing his agenda and removing anyone who questioned him. Buying properties without approval, ordaining the unqualified as priest, lied in the cathedral. The rot started from the top. Yes, we are all responsible for our actions, but the rot must stop, starting from the top. There is little hope this will happen any time soon. You have identified the symptoms, have you found the root cause?
thetruthasc,
Aptly said, when a fish rots from the head, one must immediately chop off the head before it spreads to other parts.
Talking about “chopping off”, wonder who is not rotten at all, if not because of Him. If the same rule is played, when He cuts off, He cuts off not just the head, but also every rotten “head” that bears no fruit! Fair play?
Are leaders and non-leaders measured the same way in the bible? Black is black. White is white. Your comments have been political correct but I don’t see you drawing a line on what is right and wrong in this crisis.
We must agree with samtheprophet that tithing in the OT law was for the livelihood of the Levites. And in the NT, tithing is not mentioned at all. In OT,the king and the wealthy contributed a large part of their wealth to the building of Temple. In NT giving is more for the poor, the widows and the unfortunates as well as for missionary works. Most of the Apostles and teachers works for their own livelihood e.g. Paul made tent to support himself. Jesus and the Apostles have never asked for tithe. In present day tithing was introduced to assist preacher’s livelihood so that they can carry out their mission works, more effectively. In other words they are pay to preach the words of God to all the people whether believers or non believers and not to be the master to the paymaster. By right they are not suppose to administer the affairs of running the Church. Neither Jesus nor His Apostles have ever managed the affairs of a Church. Jesus and the Apostles knew the dangers and conflicts of interest 2000 years ago. That was why it was never mentioned in the NT. When a building of worship is required then fund is raised for that particular purpose. A large portion of tithing should go to mission works, as in our case it should go the interior missions so the Gospel can reach every part of Sabah and Malaysia at large. Why should we tithe when we do not see Honesty, transparency, responsibility in our ASC and ADOS accounts and we only see a man spend our money extravagantly? It is more a sin to tithe knowing that God money is used without honesty, transparency, responsibility and for the benefits of one man and all his cronies. Most of us are getting more blessing now since we give our money for missionary works and to help the unfortunates.
A blog post on Ambition, money, power & ministry
Ministry not only attracts those who have a deep passion for God and the spread of the Gospel but it can also attract those who have personal and selfish ambition, are driven by money or power and who find ministry platforms a convenient means of realizing their ambitions.
Why choose a ministry platform? Because it is relatively easy to hide behind a facade of spirituality and ministry. It is just another platform to use for their own purposes and believers are not always as discerning as they ought to be.
There are signs of those who are more about ambition, money and power than they are about humble service.
Power brokers
I am always cautious about Christian leaders who broker power, are unaccountable to others and who make major ministry decisions by themselves rather than through team. Power is a dangerous thing and does not leave one unscathed. The healthiest leaders surround themselves with accountability through boards, team and live with great personal humility demonstrated through service to others rather than through power. When I don’t see that I am very cautious. The more power one exercises autonomously the more dangerous it is to them and to others.
Personal ambition, power and money are warning signs to beware because they can hide behind spiritual language and be lived out in the name of ministry. The ministry veneer does not make them OK.
The truth of the matter is that we often allow behaviors in ministry that would never be tolerated in the secular workplace and the sad thing is that those behaviors are often coated with a veneer of spiritual language that others find it hard to press back on. Bad behavior is bad behavior but it is worse behavior when it is coated in a spiritual facade because one is using the Holy to cover the unholy.
We are far too reluctant to confront unholy behavior in ministry settings under the guise of “grace.” Grace, however does not allow sinful behavior. Rather it forgives sinful behavior when it has been confronted or acknowledged.
Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Wisdom is about recognizing what is spiritual and what is hiding behind a mask of spirituality. It is also about being aware of our own motivations in ministry because none of us are immune to what can happen when left to ourselves.
POSTED BY T.J. ADDINGTON
A little bird from Vancouver said that AV will be attending a Chinese Church service there on 21st April at the invitation by a couple migrated there from Sabah. Who pays for his trip there? Is he looking for a new job,I wonder?
AV will be preaching in Vancouver in the Church of the Good Shepherd.News have been sent out to those Sabahans who now live in Vancouver to hear him preach!
Resolution Seeker, either you are blind or you refuse to accept the truth. Let us refresh your memory. For the past 50 years in ASC as well as ADOS. There was never any such rottenness. It is just because of one power and money crazy man BAV. A man treats the whole ADOS as his own property and all those priests, pastors and workers must only listen and support him. All because he holds the title of BOS and the constitution are in his favour. Only a man with evil intentions will use the weakness of our constitution to empower and enrich himself and his cronies. He uses the ADOS money to corrupt all those who works for him by giving them all sort of perks. In the past 50 years, we never have a bishop that is ARROGANT, PROUD, EXTRAVAGANT, IRRESPONSIBLE, NOT TRANSPARENT, NOT ACCOUNTABLE, A LIAR, A THIEF, WITHOUT LOVE, NO COMPASSION for some of his priests, pastors, workers who have left and even the dead. Now after taking you to the past, whose heads you think should come off first? Will it be the members of ASC who only want Accountability, Transparency and responsibility from BAV? If BAV is a man who has nothing to hide and has integrity, honesty in him and is not what have been mentioned above. Then he should let any ASC and ADOS members to look at all the ASC and ADOS accounts. It is because he has done so many things in the dark that cannot be seen in the light and that no one must be allowed to see. He can hide from us but he cannot hide from God. We have all the time and patience to wait and no one can chop off our heads because we are faithful worshipers and contributors to God’s kingdom and we are in the light all the time because we do spend a single cent of Church’s money. We have nothing to account to any one from the Church. We are only accountable to God. BAV, the SC, the Synod all church’s PCC are accountable and responsible to God and ADOS members. If these people are not doing the righteous things they are suppose to do. It is their heads that should come off not from us but from God because it is God they are serving.
No, I don,t think he is seeking a job in Vancouver. Why should he? He has the best and most secured
Job in the world here in DOS Sabah.